Comments on: Salesmen http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/ Reflection on ancient and contemporary worship and literature. Thu, 24 Dec 2009 02:15:25 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Bear http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-170 Bear Mon, 12 Mar 2007 02:26:06 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-170 good lord, it has been forever since you have posted anything...when do we get to hear your nuggets of wisdom? Give me more! By the way...St. Patty's Day party, plus Steve going to War party on the 17th at our crib...7ish. bring beer, wine, or food. one of the three. and your wonderful wife! good lord, it has been forever since you have posted anything…when do we get to hear your nuggets of wisdom? Give me more!

By the way…St. Patty’s Day party, plus Steve going to War party on the 17th at our crib…7ish. bring beer, wine, or food. one of the three. and your wonderful wife!

]]> By: Bear http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-169 Bear Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:03:53 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-169 Hey the bear has posted a new blog before you have a new one. what is the deal? give me more of your profundity Hey the bear has posted a new blog before you have a new one. what is the deal? give me more of your profundity

]]> By: stephen fitz http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-167 stephen fitz Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:12:39 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-167 just wanted adam to reach a record number of comments As a youth pastor I have lots of opportunities to try to persuade kids to follow Christ. I've found this simple truth. It works really well with Christians, it doesn't work with non-christians. With those not interested in what you are selling, the best you can do is just present the information as truthfully as possible and let them do with it what they will. The gospel is beyond the ability to sell. The church is therefore beyond the ability to sell, but a local church could be sold to someone I would think. I know someone could sell me on a place if I was looking. If it was in someone's best interest as far as I could percieve I would have no problem selling my local church if I felt it would help them. just wanted adam to reach a record number of comments

As a youth pastor I have lots of opportunities to try to persuade kids to follow Christ. I’ve found this simple truth. It works really well with Christians, it doesn’t work with non-christians. With those not interested in what you are selling, the best you can do is just present the information as truthfully as possible and let them do with it what they will.

The gospel is beyond the ability to sell. The church is therefore beyond the ability to sell, but a local church could be sold to someone I would think. I know someone could sell me on a place if I was looking. If it was in someone’s best interest as far as I could percieve I would have no problem selling my local church if I felt it would help them.

]]> By: Gospel Planet » Salesmen http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-166 Gospel Planet » Salesmen Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:10:41 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-166 [...] Original post by Literature, Worship and Life [...] [...] Original post by Literature, Worship and Life [...]

]]> By: Steven K http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-164 Steven K Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:05:43 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-164 I'll drink to that. But now I have to go hash it out. Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. Good to hear from you as well, Adam has just got everyone to read his blog I see. p.s. need any fences fixed? I’ll drink to that. But now I have to go hash it out. Thanks for the comments, much appreciated. Good to hear from you as well, Adam has just got everyone to read his blog I see.

p.s. need any fences fixed?

]]> By: Kameron http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-163 Kameron Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:06:31 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-163 Adam said, <i>"...my hopes of a complete and certain knowledge died with modernism and I too am swimming in an information age where anything can be proven and yet nothing is known."</i> Well put. I think this is the common current we all find ourselves in. <i>"...I preach Christ boldly at shows, and I have no problem telling people who I am as a Christ follower, but I honestly wonder if this less aggressive, non-salesmen attitude about the gospel is wrong.</i>" I wonder if someone can "agressively" love another? The focus isn't about showing the person how "right" we are, but how much we are willing to "go to bat" for them... or something of the like. As for everyone else, thank you for such an engaging and thought-provoking discussion! I've been wrestling with this "salesmen" idea too, and I've been thinking more along the lines of what Kevin said, but I have a loot more thinking to do... Just to throw a log on the fire, it might be interesting to note that <i>all</i> goods and services have value discrepancies. Who decides what an apple is worth? Is it the cost of growing it, transporting it and stocking it on supermaret shelves (and paying everyone needed for that process)? What about coffee? Why do people pay over $3 for a cup? The profit margin for coffee is through the roof! Even the paper we call money only has value because the U.S. convinced the majority of the world it could be traded for gold (real value). But they printed more than ever could be redemmed and the rest of the world is catching on (check out Ron Paul's <a href="http://http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm" rel="nofollow">speech</A>). How's that for a rip roaring discussion? Or maybe I just burt the house down. Adam said, “…my hopes of a complete and certain knowledge died with modernism and I too am swimming in an information age where anything can be proven and yet nothing is known.”

Well put. I think this is the common current we all find ourselves in.

“…I preach Christ boldly at shows, and I have no problem telling people who I am as a Christ follower, but I honestly wonder if this less aggressive, non-salesmen attitude about the gospel is wrong.”

I wonder if someone can “agressively” love another? The focus isn’t about showing the person how “right” we are, but how much we are willing to “go to bat” for them… or something of the like.

As for everyone else, thank you for such an engaging and thought-provoking discussion! I’ve been wrestling with this “salesmen” idea too, and I’ve been thinking more along the lines of what Kevin said, but I have a loot more thinking to do…

Just to throw a log on the fire, it might be interesting to note that all goods and services have value discrepancies. Who decides what an apple is worth? Is it the cost of growing it, transporting it and stocking it on supermaret shelves (and paying everyone needed for that process)? What about coffee? Why do people pay over $3 for a cup? The profit margin for coffee is through the roof! Even the paper we call money only has value because the U.S. convinced the majority of the world it could be traded for gold (real value). But they printed more than ever could be redemmed and the rest of the world is catching on (check out Ron Paul’s speech).

How’s that for a rip roaring discussion? Or maybe I just burt the house down.

]]> By: Amira http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-162 Amira Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:34:55 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-162 Adam and Steve OK I admit it Steve, I didn't read all of your blog the first time around, but I have now read it. Adam told me to add this so here we go. In my opinion, there are 2 separate parts to the Christian experience. The first we can all be certain of. This is , who Christ is, that He is and that belief/ making Him Lord will grant us eternal Salvation. This alone gives peace and comfort and is reason to evangelise. The outworkings of that and the application of the Bibile to our daily lives is much more complicated as we all , to an extent, have our own take on the scriptures, our own worldview if you will. That is where the phrase a Christian walk probably comes in. That is the area of less than 100% certainty and the area which requires a lot of wisdom as you said. That's all, Amira Adam and Steve
OK I admit it Steve, I didn’t read all of your blog the first time around, but I have now read it. Adam told me to add this so here we go.
In my opinion, there are 2 separate parts to the Christian experience. The first we can all be certain of. This is , who Christ is, that He is and that belief/ making Him Lord will grant us eternal Salvation. This alone gives peace and comfort and is reason to evangelise. The outworkings of that and the application of the Bibile to our daily lives is much more complicated as we all , to an extent, have our own take on the scriptures, our own worldview if you will. That is where the phrase a Christian walk probably comes in. That is the area of less than 100% certainty and the area which requires a lot of wisdom as you said.
That’s all, Amira

]]> By: Adam B. http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-161 Adam B. Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:51:43 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-161 Kevin, That helps. It is funny that the example you gave was from the apple world. Even while I was writing my last comment I was thinking in the back of my mind that the last thing I was actually excited about enough to tell someone about was the apple iphone, and I don't even use a cell phone or ever intend to have a high-cost cell phone if I do. I feel like I have been taught the bad salesman approach to evangelism for so long I have a difficult time making a more organic, or natural effort. Then again, all the friends I have out here in Portland regularly talk about divine things and a few are still deciding whether or not they really want to be a part of this whole Christian thing. Is this evangelism? It is so different from the revivalistic approach growing up I don't dare use the same word. Kevin,
That helps. It is funny that the example you gave was from the apple world. Even while I was writing my last comment I was thinking in the back of my mind that the last thing I was actually excited about enough to tell someone about was the apple iphone, and I don’t even use a cell phone or ever intend to have a high-cost cell phone if I do. I feel like I have been taught the bad salesman approach to evangelism for so long I have a difficult time making a more organic, or natural effort. Then again, all the friends I have out here in Portland regularly talk about divine things and a few are still deciding whether or not they really want to be a part of this whole Christian thing. Is this evangelism? It is so different from the revivalistic approach growing up I don’t dare use the same word.

]]> By: Steven K http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-160 Steven K Fri, 09 Feb 2007 15:00:31 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-160 Yes, I have heard this, the, "Apple Converts" as they tend to be called. Yes, I have heard this, the, “Apple Converts” as they tend to be called.

]]> By: Kevin http://theyomen.com/2007/02/06/salesmen/comment-page-1/#comment-159 Kevin Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:29:14 +0000 http://theyomen.com/?p=34#comment-159 Interesting thoughts. After reading it I came across this quote from the late business guru Peter Drucker: “…the aim of marketing is to make selling superfluous. The aim of marketing is to know and understand the customer so well that the product or service fits him and sells itself.” (via <a href="http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/255-quotes-on-business-marketing-writing-etc" rel="nofollow">37signals</a>) I think the salesman approach you describe and loathe (and I'm right there with you) is a dying art. Marketing folks like Drucker and the modern day equivalent (Seth Godin) detest this form of business. It just doesn't work anymore. That's why car dealers started going no-haggle. Smart business people realize that the product has to sell itself. For an interesting twist on your thoughts on spreading the gospel, consider how business folks like Guy Kawasaki (formerly with Apple) have adopted the term 'evangelist'? I think straight forward witnessing can still happen in a way that's not salesman scary. It happens every time a techie friend of yours excitedly tells you about a new techie toy (and we all have a friend like that, don't we?). He (or she) is not selling the product, they're just talking it up. They're evangelizing. It's kind of sad that I have to use a non-Christian example to illustrate a Christian concept. Interesting thoughts. After reading it I came across this quote from the late business guru Peter Drucker:

“…the aim of marketing is to make selling superfluous. The aim of marketing is to know and understand the customer so well that the product or service fits him and sells itself.”

(via 37signals)

I think the salesman approach you describe and loathe (and I’m right there with you) is a dying art. Marketing folks like Drucker and the modern day equivalent (Seth Godin) detest this form of business. It just doesn’t work anymore. That’s why car dealers started going no-haggle. Smart business people realize that the product has to sell itself.

For an interesting twist on your thoughts on spreading the gospel, consider how business folks like Guy Kawasaki (formerly with Apple) have adopted the term ‘evangelist’? I think straight forward witnessing can still happen in a way that’s not salesman scary. It happens every time a techie friend of yours excitedly tells you about a new techie toy (and we all have a friend like that, don’t we?). He (or she) is not selling the product, they’re just talking it up. They’re evangelizing.

It’s kind of sad that I have to use a non-Christian example to illustrate a Christian concept.

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